Friday, August 21, 2009

ELCA embraces homosexual clergy and moral relativism

ELCA embraces homosexual clergy and moral relativism

Group says ELCA has embraced post modernism and rejected the clear teaching of Scripture and Christian practice for nearly 2000 years.

Minneapolis – Tom Prichard, President of the Minnesota Family Council, said today that the vote by the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, (ELCA) to allow congregations to hire clergy in homosexual relationships indicates that the ELCA has fully embraced moral relativism and abdicated it’s moral authority in the community.

"With this vote to affirm homosexual behavior and clergy, the ELCA has fully embraced moral relativism and jettisoned it's moral authority in the community. They've embraced post modernism and rejected the clear teaching of Scripture and Christian practice for nearly 2000 years,” said Prichard.

"Speaking as a Lutheran, with this vote the ELCA needs to change it's name. It's no longer 'Lutheran' or 'Evangelical.' They have turned their back on the authority of the bible, the foundation on which Martin Luther started the Reformation,” said Prichard.

"What's the outcome of this vote? To find the answer, all one has to do is look at the Episcopalians who embraced homosexual behavior a few years ago. They are hemorrhaging members, because they no longer take the Scripture seriously or stand for anything grounded in objective truth,”
"It would be interesting to hear what Martin Luther would say about this. Knowing how Martin Luther thought, it wouldn't be printable."

31 comments:

William Wallace said...

It is time for biblically grounded Lutheran churches to align with the LCMS.

Herb said...

Its time to understand that you can't pick what parts of the bible you want to back, allocate and promote as good or bad. its time to understand that if you chose the part that said its a sin to cut your beard, to sleep with goats, to not marry your brothers wife or perhaps not eat shellfish that each point can't be picked and chosen. You can not follow just what you want from the bible and say its ok, its all or the idea that perception is the key and then if you understand the idea of perception, then of course you will not always have the same perception.

it can't be all true but not some.

stop the lies, stop the pick and chosen stuff

if you have cut your hair and then eaten shellfish or not married your brothers wife when your brother has died then you can not say you are a litteralist.

Minnesota Family Council said...

Herb,

Third person "you" or are you speaking to MFC?

John Helmberger said...

Herb,
You play the 'pick and choose' card as though you think you've somehow trumped the biblical argument and that there's nothing more to say. The truth is that you have only revealed your limited understanding of the Bible.

Even elementary biblical interpretation recognizes that there is a difference between moral law and ceremonial law, and that one is universal and binding across cultures and time, while the other is specific to Old Testament Israel.

That's why, for example, Jesus said to the woman caught in adultery, "Go, and sin no more" (John 8:3-11), but said to the Samaritan woman at the well, "the hour is coming when neither on this mountain [Mount Gerizim in Samaria] nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father", thereby proclaiming that the ceremonial requirements re: worship at the temple in Jerusalem would be superceded by his coming as Messiah (John 4:21-26).

If Jesus distinguished between moral and ceremonial law, shouldn't we do so as well?

There are people who, to their great discredit, use the parts of the Bible that appear to support their agenda and disregard the rest. If we're guilty of that, we should be confronted on it and repent of the sin. I invite you to show where we are being inconsistent. But what you call 'pick and choose' is really just basic, straightforward Bible interpretation.

No serious Bible student subscribes to the infantile version of literalism you hold up as a straw man. Is it possible you're really playing the 'pick and choose' card because you don't like what the Bible says about moral standards?

Troy said...

No serious student considers the Bible to be a book of truth, John.

John Helmberger said...

Troy, There are thousands, probably millions, who prove you wrong.

Elaine said...

John, Science and history proves those thousands wrong as well.

The world is not flat, we do not sit still and the sun does not revolves around the earth.

As for morality vs ceremony. there are tons of wrongs in the bible that history and or other groups of people had to force you to change, such as slavery, and the many wives that you do not have. I do not see anyone who marries their brothers wives either when their brothers die. All moral, not ceremony. As for things such as Salvery it was the extreme christains of the south, not very long ago that forth to the death to try and keep it.

Morality is all subjective, all religion in definition is subjective. None of it is objective truth. Only one persons truth is objective and then only to that one person.

The only references to homosexuality as "wrong" is in the old testiment not the new. Jesus has no say in the newest bibles which you base your religion on about such morality.

There is many versions of your religion, and yours is one version. Not overall truth.

Your group of people are notorious for immoral acts such as trolling for donations in the "light of truth"

I will pray for your "truth" for my truth finds your acts very immoral and in my view is against all things that Jesus stands for.

For my objective truth and my faith in Christ is to accept all men, including the gays and their love and committment for God and for each other.


I hope you take a clss in history and science along with all your "knowledge" and time you have spent on your one version of the bile.

Jesus was a liberal said...

oh I guess you are repenting every day for these passages...

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)



The following passage describes how the Hebrew slaves are to be treated.



If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)
Notice how they can get a male Hebrew slave to become a permanent slave by keeping his wife and children hostage until he says he wants to become a permanent slave.

What kind of family values are these?

lets go to these....

The following passage describes the sickening practice of sex slavery. How can anyone think it is moral to sell your own daughter as a sex slave?



When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)



So these are the Bible family values! A man can buy as many sex slaves as he wants as long as he feeds them, clothes them, and screws them!

Jesus was a liberal said...

You would think that Jesus and the New Testament would have a different view of slavery, but slavery is still approved of in the New Testament, as the following passages show.



Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)



Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)



In the following parable, Jesus clearly approves of beating slaves even if they didn't know they were doing anything wrong.



The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

Jesus was a liberal said...

if you do not support those passages then you must not be a litteralist? or perhaps you do just pick and make the choice to what you support or do you support and respect this?

2 Timothy 3:16-17: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."

for if you do support this then do tell how do you treat your slaves?

Jesus was a liberal said...

We can move on to how the bible condones both genocide and the beating of children.

Is this just in a ceremonious idea? perhaps just for show? or perhaps its straight imoral on all accounts of humanity?

accounts of wife beatings, child beatings, murder, and slavery all have been condoned by the bible.

there are straight forward directions on how to's even.

Not just lets talk about whats right or wrong on these subjects.


Please start to defend these and how you support them directly since you directly support all pasages of moral standards of the bible.

Your words not mine.

we can stop on the discussion of ceremony ideas since you have decided what is and what is not a ceremony at least for now. perhaps slavery was just a ceremony? perhaps people were killed in the "name of God" for ceremony? or is do not kill not a moral statement unless someone disagrees with you?

Herb said...

john, please defend these "moral standards of the bible" perhaps they are all part of a ceremony of some sort I have never been invited to?

A delicate woman doing evil to her children and eating them
Deut. 28:56-57

A fair woman without discretion resembling a jewel of gold in a swine's snout
Proverbs 11:22

A human body wallowing in blood on the highway
II Sam. 20:12

Abandoning orphans
Psalms 109:7-20

An angel killing 185,000 warriors in one night
II Kings 19:35

Angels consorting with women of earth
Gen. 6:4

Asking your neighbors to help you stone a stubborn son to death
Deut. 21:18-21

B Bears devouring 42 children
II Kings 2:23-24

Beating slaves to death in stages
Ex. 21:20-21

Beating your child black and blue
Proverbs 23:13-14
Proverbs 22:15
Proverbs 20:30

Boiling and eating your son
II Kings 6:29

Breaking and chopping up human bones and seasoning human flesh, flaying flesh off bones
Micah 3:2-3
Ezekiel 24:10
Daniel 6:24

Burning books, denouncing science, closing mouths, becoming fools
Acts 19:19 (books)
Titus 1:10-11 (mouths)
I Timothy 6:20 (science)
I Cor. 3:18 (fools)

Burning women accused of witchcraft and men accused of wizardry
Lev. 20:27
Ex. 22:18

Burning your only daughter alive to fulfill a promise
Judges 11:39

Burning your son as a sacrifice
II Kings 3:27

Burning 250 princes alive
Num. 16:35

Burying a criminal's wife and children alive
Num. 16:27, 33

Buying a wife with 200 male foreskins
I Sam. 18:25

Buying your brother to be your slave
Deut. 15:12

Buying your rape victim for your wife
Deut. 22:29

Herb said...

Castrating men for the Lord
Isaiah 56:4-5
Matt. 19:12

Chopping off heads, hands, feet, ears and plucking out eyes
Matt. 18:8-9
John 18:10
Num. 25:9
Matt. 14:10
II Sam. 4:7, 12

Circumcising a child with a sharp stone
Ex. 4:24-26

Circumcising thousands at one time
Joshua 5:2-8

Circumcising yourselves to the Lord and taking away the foreskins of your heart
Jeremiah 4:4

Cursing a tree and three cities
Matt. 21:19 (tree)
Matt. 11:22-23 (cities)

Cursing children and animals
Deut. 28:18

Cursing people with blindness, leprosy, hemorrhoids, consumption, madness, sickness, starvation, thirst, pestilence
Num. 12:10
II Kings 5:27
II Kings 15:5
II Kings 6:18
Acts 13:6-12
Lev. 26:16-39
Deut. 28:15-68
I Sam. 5:6
II Sam. 24:15

Cutting up a woman's body and distributing the pieces
Judges 19:29

D Dashing little ones against the stones
Psalm 137:9
Isaiah 13:16

Delivering people up to the torturer
Matt. 18:34-35
Matt. 13:41-42

Designing an eternal torture chamber for most people of the world and describing their screams
Matt. 13:50
Matt. 7:14
Luke 13:24
Matt. 13:42

Devils tearing peoples' bodies to get out, jumping into pigs, talking and walking about, turning into snakes
Luke 8
Luke 9:38-42
Job 1:7
Mark 3:11
Mark 1:23-28
I Peter 5:8
Gen. 3:1

Discovering women's secret parts
Isaiah 3:16-17

Dividing the prey, to every man a damsel or two
Judges 5:30

Drinking poison, handling snakes, jabbering nonsense
Mark 16:17-18

Drinking the blood of the slain
Num. 23:24

Drinking your own urine and eating your own excrement. Urinating on public walls
Isaiah 36:12
I Kings 14:10

Drowning women, men, children, embryos and and animals by inches
Gen. 7:23

Herb said...

Eating human flesh and drinking human blood
John 6:53

Eating the flesh of your own arm, the flesh of your children and of a friend
Lev. 26:29
Isaiah 9:2
Jeremiah 19:9
Deut. 28:53

Eyes consuming away in their holes and tongues consuming away in their mouths
Zechariah 14:12

Exorcising devils from people's bodies
Mark 1:23-27
Mark 1:34
Mark 5:2-14
Mark 16:17
Matt. 8:28-32
Matt. 17:14-18
Matt. 9:32-33
Matt. 12:22
Luke 8:28
Luke 13:32
Luke 8:2
Luke 9:1
Luke 10:17
Luke 9:39, 42

F Fastening human beings to trees
Mark 15:25
Joshua 8
Acts 5:30

Filling the altars and courtyards with blood of sacrificial animals
Lev. 16:11, 15

Filling the courts with the slain
Ezekiel 9:7

Filling the sword of the Lord with blood
Isaiah 34:2-6
Judges 7:18

Forbidding men to touch the bodies of women and the dead
I Cor. 7:1
I Cor. 7:29
Lev. 21:11

Forbidding women to learn, adorn themselves, speak in church, teach or visit friends
I Cor. 14:34-35
I Tim. 2:11-12
I Tim. 5:13
I Tim. 2:9

Forcing a woman to marry seven brothers
Luke 20:29-32

G Giving your children away
Deut. 28:32

Gods impregnating human beings
Matt. 1:18
Luke 1:35
Genesis 6:2

Herb said...

Eating human flesh and drinking human blood
John 6:53

Eating the flesh of your own arm, the flesh of your children and of a friend
Lev. 26:29
Isaiah 9:2
Jeremiah 19:9
Deut. 28:53

Eyes consuming away in their holes and tongues consuming away in their mouths
Zechariah 14:12

Exorcising devils from people's bodies
Mark 1:23-27
Mark 1:34
Mark 5:2-14
Mark 16:17
Matt. 8:28-32
Matt. 17:14-18
Matt. 9:32-33
Matt. 12:22
Luke 8:28
Luke 13:32
Luke 8:2
Luke 9:1
Luke 10:17
Luke 9:39, 42

F Fastening human beings to trees
Mark 15:25
Joshua 8
Acts 5:30

Filling the altars and courtyards with blood of sacrificial animals
Lev. 16:11, 15

Filling the courts with the slain
Ezekiel 9:7

Filling the sword of the Lord with blood
Isaiah 34:2-6
Judges 7:18

Forbidding men to touch the bodies of women and the dead
I Cor. 7:1
I Cor. 7:29
Lev. 21:11

Forbidding women to learn, adorn themselves, speak in church, teach or visit friends
I Cor. 14:34-35
I Tim. 2:11-12
I Tim. 5:13
I Tim. 2:9

Forcing a woman to marry seven brothers
Luke 20:29-32

G Giving your children away
Deut. 28:32

Gods impregnating human beings
Matt. 1:18
Luke 1:35
Genesis 6:2

Herb said...

Hacking a man to death
I Sam. 15:33

Hanging up heads against the sun. Putting children's heads in baskets. Nailing a head to the ground
Num. 25:4, 9
II Kings 10:7
Judges 4:21

Hating, abandoning and delivering your family up to authorities. Being rude to your mother and sisters
Matt. 10:35
Matt. 10:21
Matt. 19:29
Ezra 10
John 2:4
Matt. 12:48
Luke 14:26

Hating this life and this world to gain the next. Despising your body
John 12:25
Matt. 6:33
Romans 8:18
Mark 8:35
Romans 8:10

Having repeated sexual intercourse in public view with your neighbor's wives and your fathers' wives
II Sam. 12:11
II Sam. 16:22

Having sexual relations with your wife and her mother
Lev. 20:14

Healing with spit and magic and oil and laying on of hands, faith, a brass snake, aprons, handkerchiefs, prayer, by dipping into a pool, a garment hem, a lump of figs, and shadow.
James 5:13-15
Acts 19:11-12
Mark 16:18
Mark 5:25-30
Mark 5:34
Mark 7:33
II Kings 20:7
Num. 21:8
John 5:4
Acts 5:15

Hiding in vineyards to capture girls as they dance
Judges 21:20-23

Hiring a hitman to kill your brother
I Kings 2:25

Human entrails gushing out
Acts 1:18-19
Judges 3:22

I Ignorance being elevated above wisdom. People being told to become as children
I Cor. 1:27
I Cor. 1:19
I Cor. 4:10
Matt. 18:3

Incest: raping your sister; impregnating your daughers; marrying your sister; impregnating your daughter-in-law
II Sam. 13:1-22
Gen. 19:36
Gen. 20:12
Gen. 38:13-27

Inflicting childbirth pain as punishment
Gen. 3:16

K Kidnapping virgins for sex partners
Judges 21:7-14

Killing a child to punish the father
II Sam. 12:14

Killing all your grandchildren and nephews
II Kings 11:1
II Kings 10:13-14

Killing all your servants
II Kings 14:5-7

Killing a man's children and replacing them with another set
Book of Job

Killing everyone breathing
Num. 21:35
Joshua 8:26
Deut. 20:16
Num. 21:3
Joshua 9:11-21
Joshua 10:28-40

Killing man, woman, infant, suckling
I Sam. 15:3
Deut. 3:6

Killing your brothers
Gen. 4:8
II Chron. 21:4
Ex. 32:37
Judges 9:5

Killing your enemies with swords, hailstones, slingshots, arrows, and by crushing, fiery serpents and hornet stings, flaying off their skin and whipping them to death with an animal bone and an ax goad
Judges 3:31
Judges 16:27, 30
Judges 15:14
I Kings 20:28-30
Ex. 9:25
Deut. 13:15
Num. 21:6
Deut. 32:23-25
Deut: 7:20

Killing 50,000 innocent persons because a few looked into a box
I Sam. 6:19

Herb said...

Letting your neighbors help you stone and burn your children alive
Deut. 13:6-10
Deut. 22:20-21
Deut. 21:18-21

Lions breaking bones of husbands, wives and children
Daniel 6:24

M Making innocent pay for misdeeds of the guilty
Romans 5:12
Gen. 3
Josh. 27:24-26
II Sam. 12:11-14
I Sam. 6:19
Ex. 20:5
II Sam. 24:15

Making people disobey so you can punish them
Ex. 12:28-29
John 12:39-40
Romans 9:16-22
II Peter 2:9
Ezekiel 14:9

Making the sun stand still
Joshua 10:13

Making wives barren, ravishing them and giving them to someone else, all to punish their husbands
Deut. 28:30
Isaiah 13:16
II Sam. 12:11
Jeremiah 8:10
Zechariah 14:2
Jeremiah 6:12
Gen. 20:18
I Sam. 25:44
II Sam. 16:21
II Sam. 12:11
II Sam. 6:23

Making your child "pass through the fire"
II Kings 21:6
II Kings 16:3
II Kings 17:17

Mountains melting with blood; rivers and moon turning to blood; the sword of the Lord filled with blood; shedding of blood for redemption; pour out blood by the force of the sword
Ex. 7:20
Matt. 26:28
Rev. 6:12
Isaiah 34:6
Jeremiah 18:21
Isaiah 34:3

Mutliating the dead
II Sam. 4:7, 12

O Obtaining slaves by buying the heathen, taking captives, buying a brother
Lev. 25:45
Lev. 25:48
II Chron. 28:8
Deut. 15:12

Offering your virgin daughters to perverts
Gen. 19:4-8

One thousand women belonging to one man
I Kings 11:3

P Pimping for your wife
Gen. 12:11-19
Gen. 20:2-18
Gen. 26:6-12

Plotting the death of your paramour's husband
II Sam. 11:14-15

Punishing a whole people for one person's sin
I Kings 20:42
II Sam. 24
I Kings 17:1
Gen. 3:14-19

Purifying virgins with 12 months of perfume and oil
Esther 2:12

Putting a knife to your child's throat
Gen. 22:10

Putting babies to the sword
Matt. 2:16

Putting brothers, companions and neighbors to the sword
Ex. 32:27
Hosea 13:8

Putting the sword to all the firstborn of an entire country
Ex. 12:29

Putting your feet on captives' necks
II Sam. 22:35-41
Joshua 10:24

Herb said...

Refusing to heal a child because of its race
Matt. 15:26

Refusing to share your children as food for friends
Deut. 28:55
II Kings 6:29

Revilling and abusing the sick, handicapped and deformed
II Sam. 5:8
Num. 5:2-4
Lev. 21:1-23

Ripping up pregnant women
II Kings 15:16

S Sacrificing human beings to gods
Matt. 27:35
Judges 11:39
II Sam. 21:1-9
II Kings 16:3
II Kings 17:17
II Kings 21:6
Ex. 22:29

Seducing your own father and kinsman
Gen. 19:30-38
Ruth 3:4-15

Selling your daughter into slavery
Ex. 21:7

Selling a whole family to pay a debt
Matt. 18:23-25

Selling yourself into slavery
Matt. 18:23-25

Sending your wife and child into the desert alone
Gen. 21:14

Separating oneself from those of another doctrine
Romans 16:17
1 Tim. 6:5

Seven women taking hold of one man
Isaiah 4:1

Sexually abusing women to death
Judges 19:25

Shedding blood for atonement for the soul
Lev. 17:11
Hebrews 9:22
John 1:7
Matt. 26:28

Slaying old and young, maids and little children and women, but sparing the men
Ezekiel 9:6

Slavishly obeying husbands, parents, masters, state, gods
Gen. 3:16
I Cor. 11:3
James 4:7
Romans 13:1
Ephesians 5:22
Ephesians 6:5
Ephesians 6:1
Colossians 3:18
Colossians 3:20
Colossians 3:22

Spreading excrement on human faces; spitting in your child's face; washing your feet in blood
Malachi 2:3
Num. 12:14
Psalms 58:10

Stoning and burning whole families
Joshua 7:24-26
Num. 16:35

Stoning women for being rape victims
Deut. 22:21

Stoning and burning women for not being virgins
Deut. 22:21
Lev. 21:9

Stoning your brothers, son, daughter, and wife for worshipping differently from yourself
Deut. 13:6-10

Stoning a man for picking up sticks
Num. 15:35-36

Stoning a youth for blasphemy
Lev. 24:23

Stripping women of their clothing and jewelry
Ezekiel 16:39

T Taking women and children as spoils of war and dividing up the virgins and babies
Num. 31:18-40
Deut. 20:14
II Chron. 28:8

Tearing off women's breasts
Ezekiel 23:24

Ten virgins awaiting one bridegroom
Matt. 25:1-3

Throwing a woman from a window to be run over by horses and eaten by dogs
II Kings 9:32-37

Throwing babies into a river
Ex. 1:22

Thrusting people through and stabbing them in the belly with a concealed dagger
Num. 25:8
Isaiah 13:15
Judges 3:21
Zech. 13:3

Torturing animals by hanging them, tying them together and setting their tails on fire, drowning them, and afflicting them with plagues
II Sam. 8:4
Judges 15:4-5
Ex. 9:3,6
Ex. 14:28

Torturing victims with briers, thorns, harrows, saws, passing through fire, the brick kiln, plagues, eternal fire, frogs, lice, flies, thirst, hunger, boils, and sores
Matt. 13:49-50
Num. 21:5-9
Judges 8:16
II Sam. 12:31
I Chron. 20:3
Job
II Kings 8:1
II Sam. 18:14
Ex. 23:28, 30
Ex. 7-11
Num. 16:41-49
II Sam. 24:15
Joshua 10:10-11
Num. 11:33

"Trying out" virgins
Esther 2:12-14

Turning a used woman into the streets at will
Deut. 21:11-14
Deut. 24:1-3
Matt. 19:7-8
Gen. 21:14

U Using a virgin to give an old man heat
I Kings 1:1-2

Herb said...

Warning women not to become mothers
Matt. 24:19
Luke 23:29

Wild beasts, fowl, dogs and swords devouring flesh
Ezekiel 33:27
Deut. 28:26
Lev. 26:22
Jeremiah 15:3

Wiping out whole cities with napalm or war
Joshua 6
Gen. 19
Num. 21:25
Deut. 2:34

Women kissing men's feet and drying them with their hair
Luke 7:45
John 12:3

last but not least

Z Zapping innocents--throughout.

mom said...

The problem is that your way is

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I come not to send peace, but a sword

that is exactly the way of the middle east and that of all extremists.

My Christ is love giving and accepting.

I hope that you find him.

Troy said...

John,
I count those millions among the flat-earthers. Just because they believe it does not make it true.

Elaine said...

Troy... For them its true, they can believe that the sky is orange and the ground is made of marshmellows for all I care, just don't tell me to believe it, and keep it out of our laws and schools. Mostly don't tell me its the "moral truth".

Bess said...

Tell me of your opinion on slavery in the bible? The condoned acts of murder, genocide, rape, plural marriages? How did they stay a moral strenght throughout time? Or perhaps they are just cermemonial in nature? perhaps raping, beating, killing and the ownership of a slave (which the bible goes to great details on how to beat them) is just done as a ceremony?

The hold you have on morality is your own. No one elses.

Its time that you embrace all people including Gay People. We no longer own slaves, we no longer think killing in the name of God is correct, we no longer have multiple wives or husbands for that matter. We no longer accept rape and beatings of others as normal. Its time that you understand that there are many things that have changed. The world is not flat, we do not have the sun revolving around the earth, and guess what? Gay is ok.

Claude said...

Those today decrying homosexuality and citing biblical references to buttress their position are doing so more as an act of their homophobia than as an exposition of biblical knowledge. To truly follow Paul, they should be decrying adultery, greed, and gluttony more often and with as much gusto as they decry than homosexual relations.

Blog mole said...

Pick up a bible and ask God to reveal the truth to you. If you are sincere in your efforts He will.

Claude said...

The truth of the bile supports slavery, genocide, rape, murder, and multiple wives.

Elaine said...

I see that no one of "biblical" knowledge is brave enough to answer to either jesus was a liberal or to herb.

because perhaps they know they can not answer or respond to such important questions as they pose?

John Helmberger said...

Herb, Just wondering if you've actually read all the Scripture passages you listed.

Herb said...

I was brought up with the teachings yes. I have read them all yes.

After reading them all, and after becoming a man, I understand that that men of the times wrote the books. All the books, including all the books that all the different churches have decided to leave out.

I understand that time lines, and dates, science, and facts are not in the bible. I understand that the history is in the legends, stories, and morals that were subscribed to.

I understand that we do not need to have laws to tell us what to eat any longer. I understand that moral structure such as owning another person has changed and so it should have. I understand as with that, the understanding of other morals that the bible condones, such as rape, and muder for certain "crimes" are also immoral now. I also know that with that knowledge I must also understand that I do not own people do not own judgement on homosexuals.

One can not make choice of which moral passage is ok not to follow anylonger and the other ok and call the book the word of GOD and all truth.

Truth today is not the same as truth then.

Its time for you to answer, how you can make the choice on which moral structure and which moral passage you have made choice to follow and which ones you can pass off as change of times?

Or perhaps you do own a slave, have multiple wives and are planning on how to stone me for disagreement of your God?

I think not.

zzz said...

john, my question to you is have YOU read all those passages?

And how do you condone the true falsehoods and contradicted passages?

Do you back the fact that bible condones slavery for instance. Lets start with that. What is your answer to that?

Jesus was a liberal said...

JOHN, I ask again, in polite tone for an answer.

you said...

If Jesus distinguished between moral and ceremonial law, shouldn't we do so as well?


the new testiment says this.

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)



Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)



In the following parable, Jesus clearly approves of beating slaves even if they didn't know they were doing anything wrong.



The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

I invite you to show me where the same moral thought is today?

Do you support these passages? If so explain how.