Wednesday, August 19, 2009

With or without 'death panels', Obamacare inevitably means rationing

Whether concern about 'death panels' is justified or not, Obamacare will result in rationed health care because rationing is what government programs inevitably do. It's Econ 101, as ABC's John Stossel points out in The Ugly Truth of Obamacare.


Troy said...

And, with Republican care (status quo) millions go uninsured and will face pain, disease, sickness and an early death.

I'd pick Obamacare anyday, and so would jesus.

Jesus was a liberal said...

and its only an option! you dont have to take it if you dont want it. you can take from plan b or c.

or perhaps your ok with the millions of people that go without insurance every day and die, mothers and fathers, and children all turned away, and actually die because of people like you are blocking their option to get health care.


Lets call it out the only reason the mfc is not behind the idea of any gov offered health care is because of any birth control health care that will be offered is not part of your personal religous beliefs.

And lets get back to the idea of the fact that YOU PERSONALLY just typed out ok if the idea of "dealth panels" are not justified, where is the responsiblity of the fact that it was put out there in the first place? scare tatics are wrong.

Would Jesus have done anything that went against his own moral structure to justify his own means? or isn't that exactly how he got on the cross? because he stood on his moral ground, and never bowed.

To lie, cheat and scare the public into making law that follows your religous beliefs is exactly WHAT JESUS WOULDN'T HAVE DONE.

Continue living your life as example as he did and they will come isn't that his message? or is only control, power, and greed what the MFC is based on, because right now thats all that shows.

John Helmberger said...

Troy & liberal,
I'm curious - how many people do you think go without health care (not health care INSURANCE) now? Even people without health care insurance get health care, even if they can't pay for it.

So why do you insist on posing a false choice between government-run health care or no health care at all?

Let's talk honestly about how best to pay for health care for those who can't pay for it themselves, instead of pretending that a government-run program is the only way to show compassion.

Speaking of compassion, how is it compassionate to set up a government-run system that will inevitably ration health care for everyone to keep costs down?

Elaine said...

you want to know how many Millions go with out?

This document is also available as a printable .pdf file.
Facts on Health Insurance Coverage

Facts on the Cost of Health Insurance Coverage

Most Americans have health insurance through their employers, yet employment is no longer a guarantee of health insurance coverage. As America continues to move from a manufacturing-based economy to a service economy, and employee
working patterns continue to evolve, health insurance coverage has become less stable. The service sector offers less access to health insurance than its manufacturing counterparts.

Due to rising health insurance premiums, many small employers cannot afford to offer health benefits. Companies that do offer health insurance, often require employees to contribute a larger share toward their coverage. As a result, an increasing number of Americans have opted not to take advantage of job-based health insurance because they cannot afford it.

How Many Americans Are Uninsured?

Several studies estimate the number of uninsured Americans. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, nearly 46 million Americans, or 18 percent of the population under the age of 65, were without health insurance in 2007, their latest data available.1
The Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality, using the Medical Expenditure Panel Survey (MEPS) estimated that the percentage of uninsured Americans underage 65 represented 27 percent of the population. According to the MEPS data, nearly 54 million Americans under the age of 65 were uninsured in the first-half of 2007. 2
A recent study shows that based on the effects of the recession alone (not job loss), it is projected that nearly seven (7) million Americans will lose their health insurance coverage between 2008 and 2010. 3 Urban Institute researchers estimate that if unemployment reaches 10 percent, another six (6) million Americans will lose their health insurance coverage. Taking these numbers together, it is conceivable that by next year, 57 to 60 million Americans will be uninsured.
The Urban Institute estimates that under a worse case scenario, 66 million Americans will be uninsured by 2019. 4

Nearly 90 million people – about one-third of the population below the age of 65 spent a portion of either 2007 or 2008 without health coverage.5

Elaine said...

Who Are the Uninsured?

The large majority of the uninsured (85 percent) are native or naturalized citizens.6
Nearly 1.3 million full-time workers lost their health insurance in 2006. 1
Over 8 in 10 uninsured people come from working families – almost 70 percent from families with one or 7
The percentage and the number of uninsured Hispanics increased to 32.1 percent and overall to 15 million in 2007.1
Why is the Number of Uninsured People Increasing?

Even if employees are offered coverage on the job, they can’t always afford their portion of the premium. Health insurance premiums have increased 119 percent for employers since 1999 and employee spending for health insurance coverage (employee’s share of family coverage) has increased 117 percent between 1999 and 2008.7
Rapidly rising health insurance premiums are the main reason cited by all small firms for not offering coverage. Health insurance premiums are rising at extraordinary rates. The average annual increase in inflation has been 2.5 percent while health insurance premiums for small firms have escalated an average of 12 percent annually.7

Elaine said...

How Does Being Uninsured Harm Individuals and Families?

Studies estimate that the number of excess deaths among uninsured adults age 25-64 is in the range of 22,000 a year. This mortality figure is more than the number of deaths from diabetes (17,500) within the same age group.8
Lack of insurance compromises the health of the uninsured because they receive less preventive care, they are diagnosed at more advanced disease stages, and once diagnosed, tend to receive less therapeutic care and have higher mortality rates than insured individuals.9
Controlling for age, race, sex, and income, uninsured cancer patients are 1.6 times more likely than insured patients to die within five years of diagnosis. 10
The high cost of health care can damage the overall economic well-being of families. One in three low-income parents without coverage report medical bills have a major financial impact on their families.11
On average, the uninsured are 9 to 10 times more likely to forgo medical care because of cost and twice as likely to have medical debt. 9
The uninsured are increasingly paying “up front” -- before services will be rendered. When they are unable to pay the full medical bill in cash at the time of service, they can be turned away except in life-threatening circumstances.12
Access to an emergency room for uninsured patients does not qualify as access to coordinated care. While physicians are required to stabilize patients in an emergency, they are not required to treat the condition comprehensively. 13
Over the last decade, disparities between the uninsured and insured widened in access to a usual source of care, annual check-ups, and preventive care, and are the greatest in disparities and our growing. 6

Elaine said...


1. DeNavas-Walt, C.B. Proctor, and J. Smith. Income, Poverty, and Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: 2007. U.S. Census Bureau., August 2008.
2. Chu, M. C. and J. Rhoades, The Uninsured in America, 1996-2007: Estimates for the the U.S. Civilian Noninstitutionalized Population Under Age 65, Medical Expenditure Panel Survey, AHRQ, Statistical Brief #214, July 2008.
3. Gilmer, T. P. and R. G. Kronick, Hard Times And Health Insurance: How Many Americans Will Be Uninsured By 2010?, Health Affairs Web Exclusive, May 28, 2009.
4. Holahan, J., et. al, Health Reform – The Cost of Failure. Robert Wood Johnson Foundation and the Urban Institute, May 21, 2009.
5. Families USA. Americans at Risk: One in Three Uninsured, Familes USA, March 2009.
6. The Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation. The Uninsured: A Primer, Key Facts About Americans without Health Insurance. April 2009.
7. The Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation. Employee Health Benefits: 2008 Annual Survey. September 2008.
8. Dorn, S, “Uninsured and Dying Because of It: Updating the Institute of Medicine Analysis on the Impact of Uninsurance on Mortality,” Urban Institute, 2008.
9. National Center for Health Statistics. “Health, United States, 2007: with Chartbook on Trends in the Health of Americans,” 2007; Center for American Progress, The Case for Health Reform, February 2009.
10. Ward, E. , et all., “Association of Insurance with Cancer Care Utlization and Outcomes,” CA: A Cancer Journal for Clinicians (58), 2008.
11. Schwartz, K., Spotlight on Uninsured Parents: How Lack of Coverage Affects Parents and Their Families, Kaiser Commission on Medicaid and the Uninsured , 2008.
12. Anderson, G., “From ‘Soak the Rich’ to ‘Soak the Poor’: Recent Trends in Hospital Pricing,” Health Affairs (26) 2007.
13. Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act, 42 U.S.C. 1395dd,

Elaine said...

Studies estimate that the number of excess deaths among uninsured adults age 25-64 is in the range of 22,000 a year

Perhaps your ok with that.


Elaine said...

When it comes down to it, the only thing the MFC is about is money and the idea just the idea that a healthcare system might cover the choice of family planning.

People can die because of your choice. Living souls.

And everytime you go to the voting booth you personally have killed someone by not helping others and by not making the choice to support all people, all lifestyles. That is my personal opinion.

Elaine said...

So in my opinion the only death panel we have is the one the radical extremist religous organizations has or have supported.

Elaine said...

so a very long way to answer YOUR questions.


Claude said...

People die because they do not have insurance. The way health care is set up in our nation is to only be insured.

Its like your religion, you wont go to heven if you dont belive exactly and act exactly like you do. If you disagree with your religion people burn up in a place called hell.

That story might or might not be true, I have no proof.

I do have proof on people dieing in our nation because they do not have insurance.

Herb said...

Whether concern about 'death panels' is justified or not.....

wowzer, after all you wrote on how justified it is? you can jump to say something as uncaring as a citizen to how many people do you think do not get health care?

These types of statements are dangerously irresponsible.

Jesus was a liberal said...

More scare tactics with ration idea. Health care will NOT be rationed.

here is proof.

Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill – YOUR HEALTHCARE IS NOT RATIONED!!!

If you go to pg 29, lines 4-16, you’ll see that this section is discussing limits on cost sharing. Scroll up to pgs 8 and 9 for a definition: “The term ‘cost-sharing’ includes deductibles, coinsurance, copayments and similar charges but does not include premiums or any network payment differential for covered services or spending for non-covered services”.

So, if cost sharing is the amount that you have to pay for services, then a section on a limitation of cost sharing is setting a limit on the amount you have to fork out, NOT on the amount of coverage you receive. Therefore this is NOT about rationing your health care.

Anonymous said...

Calling it obamacare doesn't make it scary, it puts distinction on it. It can only help.

If the alarmists wouldn't shout out lies as loud as they can infront of any media monger that will print anything for a buck, then you would learn the truth and not hear only the myths of what this great new function our country will be doing for our great nation.

Elaine said...

This was a dangerous statement to make in the first place. Take responsibility for such alarmist ways.

You yelled fire in a crowed room. When actually done, if you yell fire in a crowed room its against the law. People are held accountable for it.

Will you be accounted for?

Elaine said...

now that the myth of rations in health care has also been debunked are you going to have yet another posting about ok if this is not justified then we still have to worry about that?

I am ashamed that there are americans that are ok with millions of people dieing because there is no health care to them.

John Helmberger said...

Elaine, Where did you get the absurd notion that health care rationing has been "debunked"? You must be reading nothing but your own propaganda. Do you really think that by repeating Obamacare's thoroughly discredited marketing hype often enough and earnestly enough it will change the facts? The health care "reform" bills before Congress now will ration health care for EVERYONE to keep costs down. It has to. Endlessly repeating Pres. Obama's false assurances to the contrary won't change that.

Elaine said...

Do you think John but repeating every right wing speaking point will make it true?

There is nothing false at all going on just because you say it is.

Your afraid of the truth, which is not part your special interest agenda.

Which is the extremist radical right wing religious agenda.

Which is colonization, which is a form of slavery.

You can hide behind your choice of bible, and your lifestyle, but it dosen't make it true.

For its your choice to live that lifestyle, and to have that behavior, which you call your religion.

jesus would back health care.

Jesus was a liberal said...

Doctors Like Public Option, Especially As A Choice
by DemFromCT
Mon Sep 14, 2009 at 07:00:04 PM PDT
In the New England Journal of Medicine today, a fascinating poll survey done by doctors from the Mount Sinai School of Medicine, New York via email and phone, shows doctors overwhelmingly comfortable with the public option. As noted by NPR:

When polled, "nearly three-quarters of physicians supported some form of a public option, either alone or in combination with private insurance options," says Dr. Salomeh Keyhani. She and Dr. Alex Federman, both internists and researchers at Mount Sinai School of Medicine in New York, conducted a random survey, by mail and by phone, of 2,130 doctors. They surveyed them from June right up to early September.

Most doctors — 63 percent — say they favor giving patients a choice that would include both public and private insurance. That's the position of President Obama and of many congressional Democrats. In addition, another 10 percent of doctors say they favor a public option only; they'd like to see a single-payer health care system. Together, the two groups add up to 73 percent.