Thursday, April 23, 2009

OutFront Minnesota's day at the Capitol

I had some interesting encounters at the legislature today. I was there lobbying on a wide variety issues which happened to be the same day OutFront Minnesota has their annual lobbying day.

I had some respectful, but passionate encounters with individuals who recognized me and came over to talk. (Someone even wanted their picture taken with me.) Which I'm fine with and all for. The public rhetoric by some homosexual activists is name calling and platitudinal statements not rational discourse.

A couple of grandparents came up to me and said how great their grandkids were doing with their two moms, one of whom is their daughter. I asked them if kids don't need a mom and dad. He said, no two parents of whatever sex is what's important. I said that's interesting. All one has to do is visit the state prison to find that 85% of the prisoners didn't have a father in their lives suggests other wise. Having a mom and a dad is essential for the existence of the child so to with their upbringing.

He also said that homosexuals are born that way. I said where is the evidence for that statement. After three or four repeated requests he couldn't cite the studies but he'd send it to me. (My view is there isn't a gay gene but that individuals may have a predisposition towards homosexuality which poor family or lack of an adequate relationship with a particular parent may trigger.) I noted that even if there's a biological basis, an individual always has a choice as to the behavior they engage in.

I also was engaged by a liberal baptist pastor and the parents with a homosexual son. The pastor of course couldn't find any example in the Bible for the endorsement of homosexual marriage though he did throw out the usual example of David and Jonathan and their relationship. I pointed out there's a difference between same sex love which is fine and a good thing and same sex sex which is not a good thing in addition to being unhealthy. People often confuse the two. So too with David and Jonathan's example.

The pastor also said it was wrong for me to attempt to impose my religious views on other people through the laws. It violated the separation of church and state. I responded that I thought it was hypocritical for him to say it was wrong for me to promote views consonant with my views in the legislature but not for him to promote his religious based views. I think he had one of those "ah ha" moments.

The mom told me it was hurtful when I opposed equality for her son regarding marriage. I said I find it hurtful to me when she attempts to redefine such an important institution in society which will harm so many people. (I think the appeal to personal hurtful is generally an emotional, manipulative technique.) I also said that the issue wasn't marriage equality, because nothing was preventing her son from getting married now. The difference was they were seeking to redefine the whole institution of marriage to something much different not just seek access to it. The father, though he didn't agree, said I made a fair argument.

I frankly enjoy interactions of people I disagree with when they seek to engage in a rational discussion of the issue. The more this can occur the better for all concerned.

17 comments:

Elaine said...

1) 85% of people in prison are from single family homes? 90%+ of those people are from straight families, with the straight dad not in the picture. Its not about a mom & a dad in the same home, its about purposeful parenting, a single mom, a single dad, an aunt, a single grandparent with purposeful parenting reaching out to support groups, either in family outside of family, social communities, including not excluding churches for some families, is what makes a child's life rich and fullfilled, and part of over all community of all society a success. This can be done with multi parenting positions as well, two parents, are easier than one and the more strong parental relationships a child has in the home, be it biological or not, is what important, not the mother and father role alone. Having strong moral values, and contributing to society, and self progress is what makes a success out of a person. The avenue to get there can be diversed and wonderful, in many different ways, not just your colonized view of what that might be. Do the work, go look at the results not your opinion of the gay culture. Such a tiny little part of it is "unsafe" like you say, the majority of Gay couples are searching out for equal rights to expose how they live, which is in a safe manner, like straight people, bringing up joyful children and living with just one person, wanting marriage, my opinion is that is what really scares you, its the fact that they want these things that prove your demonization of them, not evil at all, but just like everyone else. When the demon end is taken away, because the picture you paint of their lives are not true then your stand is taken away. You can shout on the roof tops of "their" lifestyles as unsafe, but one person one person safe sex is just that safe sex. Medicine does prove that.

2)Homesexuals are born that way, some proof you need you say?.......
http://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/guide/sexual-orientation
google .. Brian Mustanski, PhD, a psychologist at the University of Illinois at Chicago.
NIH researcher Dean Hamer, PhD
Simon LeVay and sooo many more scientists!
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/assault/genetics/

go to the scientist.com and do a search and get a million of articles that support this

go to the www.bmj.com/ the british medical journal you will find the same on the New England Journal of Medicine as well.

The top level of all things Medical is backing up the evidence of you are BORN gay. You can say that the sun circles the earth, and you can burn people at the stake for saying so Tom, but it still doesn't make it right or true!

As for the back up plan of ok, so if you are BORN GAY then its a behavior you can make the choice not to act on that part of yourself. Guess what, I was BORN NOT GAY Its part of who I am, sexuality is a part of the whole person, and all people are sexual, you might think its a bad part, or a part to only use if you want children, but thats your OPINION and you make the CHOICE FOR YOUR OPINION AND RELIGION and that sir is a behavior as well, and guess what you can think that all you want but you CAN'T make it law. Just as a Gay person can't make it law to say that all straight people should behave their way, because we can't, its part of who we are. Just as thinking its ok to make the choice to not have a child because we are not made up that way, to be a parent, as the choice to be a parent, or the choice to be a painter, because we paint, or a singer, its part of who we are. And yes you can seperate that with how you lobby. You are colonizing others, conforming others to your thought, that is a form of slavery.

3)back up from the bible FOR HOMESEXUALS. just a few I could go on forever....

Job 20:4-5
4 Knowest thou not this of old, since man was placed upon earth,
5 That the triumphing of the wicked is short, and the joy of the
hypocrite but for a moment?

Job 27:4
4 My lips shall not speak wickedness, nor my tongue utter deceit.

Job 27:8
8 For what is the hope of the hypocrite, though he hath gained,
when God taketh away his soul?

Prov 11:9
9 An hypocrite with his mouth destroyeth his neighbour: but through
knowledge shall the just be delivered.

Matt 7:1
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Luke 6:46
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Luke 6:31
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them
likewise.

Luke 6:36
36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

Matt 5:43-44
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour,
and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you,
do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully
use you, and persecute you;

Matt 19:19
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour
as thyself.

Matt 22:37-40
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy
heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as
thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Luke 6:27
27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them
which hate you,

John 13:34
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another;
as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Gal 5:14
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt
love thy neighbour as thyself.

Gal 5:25
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

1Thes 3:12
12 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward
another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:

1Thes 4:8
8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath
also given unto us his holy Spirit.

1 Pet 2:17
17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

1 Pet 3:8
8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another,
love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:

I Jn 3:11
11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we
should love one another.

I Jn 3:14
14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love
the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

I Jn 3:23
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of
his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us
commandment.

I Jn 4:7
7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one
that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

I Jn 4:11
11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

I Jn 4:12
12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God
dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

I Jn 4:16
16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us.
God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and
God in him.

I Jn 4:20
20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar:
for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he
love God whom he hath not seen?

4)I said I find it hurtful to me when she attempts to redefine such an important institution in society which will harm so many people how? Tom how? It will hurt your bigoted views is all, it will take away the deomon out of your fight against the gays. It will allow them to have the rights as others. Marriage is a new thing Tom, it was based on ownership, we have redefined it from that status, we have redefined how you can break a marriage as well, since the idea of marriage is not a church thing but a leagal thing. Do the research on history of marriage, and religion. I could go on forever and ever here with facts and I will leave that up to the U of M to do that for you, go take a class that isn't based on your religion, go learn something outside your blind faith. You can go back to thinking that you are right, even if the sun dosen't circle the earth, by all means think it. You get your holy blessing on your marriage, and leave others to get their own blessings in their own religions and their own beliefs.

YOUR BEHAVIOR IS A CHOICE, YOUR RELIGION IS A CHOICE. ITS YOUR CHOICE TO BE A BIGOT.

bob said...

wow Elaine! I am glad to have you on my side.

as for the capital hill thoughts...


To all those who advocate putting human rights up to popular vote, does that mean the 600 million gay people on Earth get to vote on your human rights? Simply outnumbering people to deprive them of their human rights to equality is completely uncivilized - no better than the Islamofascists in Iraq who vote away the human rights of minority Christians.

mom said...

Tom, it takes a village to bring up a child in a proper way, it takes loving adults to parent them. It takes a society of people, not Just one man one woman. If anything I would never ever EVER to have my child brought up in this world with just my opinions. I DON'T want them to follow in my footsteps, I want them to form their own. I want them to have many many loving adults both men and women, biological, Or non.

I love the phrase purposeful parenting. That is exactly what takes to produce a well rounded person for society. That is what will help keep people out of jail, its equal opportunity as well that is needed. The equal opportunity to be civil, and just. thats what pro marriage people like myself are all about. I am the biggest pro marriage person around, but I do not limit it to what my idea of marriage is. Its my Marriage, my Life, not yours. Not my Neighbor's and my Marriage can not be defined by you or even by law, but the law does give me the same opportunities to live in a peaceful life with the same legal opportunities to be at a bedside of someone, to have the estate devided the right way and for interaction of my children in a decsion making way.

No one is redefineing marriage. It can't be defined.

the legal end of it all gives the financial and legal rights to family and decsions.

bob said...

ps... I dont have any issues with your marriage, redefining my love and partnership with my husband.

Only person I have ever been with, only person I ever plan to be with. I had two straight parents, they are still together after ... I dont want to embarrase them but over 50 years now. I have dated women. I have never had sex with a woman. I didn't have sex with my partner till I dated him for a while, and I have dated other men, without sleeping with them. I have never even had a parking ticket. I pay my taxes, I go to church. I dont smoke and I hardly drink.

I am your nightmare! :)

John said...

"also said that the issue wasn't marriage equality, because nothing was preventing her son from getting married now.............."



Ford said it best, "Any customer can have a car painted any colour that he wants so long as it is black."

That was a joke and so is the opinion that you can do anything you like as long as it fits into this box, the way I say it should.

lary said...

go duluth! next step? equality for all! And guess what Tom? I'm straight and only had one parent, and was happy to have Her, my gay MOM! Who never re coupled after her Partner died of cancer at age 34. One soul she was tied to as she says. She two was my mom, As much as I didn't have her in my life after the age of 2 they defined me. Helped me grow and love and laugh and learn, and I'm straight, and educated, and have spirituality.

...............................

DULUTH, Minn. (AP) -- A Duluth city councilman says he'll introduce an ordinance to allow gay couples to register as domestic partners with city hall.

Councilor Jeff Anderson says it would be a mostly symbolic move, but says it would help committed same-sex couples more easily sign up for domestic partner benefits from employers that offer them.

Anderson is the Duluth's first openly gay city councilor. He says it can be difficult for companies to know whether someone's domestic partnership is legitimate.

Couples applying for the city registry would have to pay $20 or $25 for a certificate, and attest that they "are as committed to one another as married persons are traditionally committed."

About 70 cities around the country have similar registries, including Minneapolis.

Jill said...

Girl on Girl sex safe as can be!

Myself and My partner have the best Sex ever. Soft, passionate and SAFE SAFE SAFE

I will never be with another woman as long as I live as well.

Go MARRIAGE!

Gared said...

""because nothing was preventing her son from getting married now""

Tom probably thinks that this argument is clever and dispositive, but I wonder if he is aware of the fact that precisely the same argument was made against interracial couples. If it is special rights for same-sex couples to marry like different-sex couples, then it’s special rights for different-race couples to marry like same-race couples.

Conservative defenders of "traditions" often insist that there is no valid analogy between interracial marriage and same-sex marriage. It’s true that there are many differences, but conservatives’ insistence here would be more credible if they didn’t keep using the same arguments in both situations.


People aren’t opposing gay marriage because they genuinely believe that civil, secular marriage laws should be defined by religion, but because of a deep-seated hatred and disgust of gays.

Divorce was legalized and the cities didn't burn to the ground. Interracial marriage was legalized and segregation ended without civilization falling apart around us. Gays and gay relationships are "being normalized" at every level of society and overall, things are only getting better. Gay marriage will become legal, sooner or later, and eventually conservatives will look back upon it, denying their efforts to thwart it just as they refuse to acknowledge their complicity with segregation and bans on interracial marriage. It's pathetic.

Gared said...

Regarding your opinion on parenting.

AMERICAN ACADEMY OF PEDIATRICS

http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics%3b109/2/339

Children who are born to or adopted by 1 member of a same-sex couple deserve the security of 2 legally recognized parents. Therefore, the American Academy of Pediatrics supports legislative and legal efforts to provide the possibility of adoption of the child by the second parent or coparent in these families.

Children deserve to know that their relationships with both of their parents are stable and legally recognized. This applies to all children, whether their parents are of the same or opposite sex. The American Academy of Pediatrics recognizes that a considerable body of professional literature provides evidence that children with parents who are homosexual can have the same advantages and the same expectations for health, adjustment, and development as can children whose parents are heterosexual.1–9 When 2 adults participate in parenting a child, they and the child deserve the serenity that comes with legal recognition.

Children born or adopted into families headed by partners who are of the same sex usually have only 1 biologic or adoptive legal parent. The other partner in a parental role is called the "coparent" or "second parent." Because these families and children need the permanence and security that are provided by having 2 fully sanctioned and legally defined parents, the Academy supports the legal adoption of children by coparents or second parents. Denying legal parent status through adoption to coparents or second parents prevents these children from enjoying the psychologic and legal security that comes from having 2 willing, capable, and loving parents.

Several states have considered or enacted legislation sanctioning second-parent adoption by partners of the same sex. In addition, legislative initiatives assuring legal status equivalent to marriage for gay and lesbian partners, such as the law approving civil unions in Vermont, can also attend to providing security and permanence for the children of those partnerships.

Many states have not yet considered legislative actions to ensure the security of children whose parents are gay or lesbian. Rather, adoption has been decided by probate or family courts on a case-by-case basis. Case precedent is limited. It is important that a broad ethical mandate exist nationally that will guide the courts in providing necessary protection for children through coparent adoption.

Coparent or second-parent adoption protects the child’s right to maintain continuing relationships with both parents. The legal sanction provided by coparent adoption accomplishes the following:

Guarantees that the second parent’s custody rights and responsibilities will be protected if the first parent were to die or become incapacitated. Moreover, second-parent adoption protects the child’s legal right of relationships with both parents. In the absence of coparent adoption, members of the family of the legal parent, should he or she become incapacitated, might successfully challenge the surviving coparent’s rights to continue to parent the child, thus causing the child to lose both parents.

Protects the second parent’s rights to custody and visitation if the couple separates. Likewise, the child’s right to maintain relationships with both parents after separation, viewed as important to a positive outcome in separation or divorce of heterosexual parents, would be protected for families with gay or lesbian parents.

Establishes the requirement for child support from both parents in the event of the parents’ separation.

Ensures the child’s eligibility for health benefits from both parents.

Provides legal grounds for either parent to provide consent for medical care and to make education, health care, and other important decisions on behalf of the child.

Creates the basis for financial security for children in the event of the death of either parent by ensuring eligibility to all appropriate entitlements, such as Social Security survivors benefits.

On the basis of the acknowledged desirability that children have and maintain a continuing relationship with 2 loving and supportive parents, the Academy recommends that pediatricians do the following:

Be familiar with professional literature regarding gay and lesbian parents and their children.

Support the right of every child and family to the financial, psychologic, and legal security that results from having legally recognized parents who are committed to each other and to the welfare of their children.

Advocate for initiatives that establish permanency through coparent or second-parent adoption for children of same-sex partners through the judicial system, legislation, and community education.

Chuck Darrell said...

Elaine, you keep bringing up religion. Are you saying I can't love someone if I disagree with his or her sexual behavior?

Do you hate a man that cheats on his wife? Do you hate a promiscuous teenager?

It’s not about a mom and dad in the home, it’s about purposeful parenting? Bob and Elaine, our divorce culture has produced a mountain of sociological, psychological, scientific data that shows children need a mother and a father, married and in the home.

And Elaine, I may have missed it, but is Romans 1 26,27 hate speech, bigoted, etc.? Is a pastor that preaches said verse a hate filled bigot?

Bob, you aren't anyone's nightmare. Do you know any people that are opposed to gay marriage that are not haters? Is it possible to disagree about the definition of marriage without hating?

Chuck Darrell said...

Elaine, I forgot to ask you if you believed the verses you qouted to be the truth? I think you are using them as a rebuttle which implies that you believe the verses to be factual and true.

Elaine said...

Chuck,

You just dont get it, I am going to respond here to a couple of things.

First of all, the idea that two people of different sexes can't raise a child purposefully and in love is so ridiculous. The divorce issues, and single parent issues of those who are incarerated are not because they were brought up with one parent, its because they were abandoned and neglected. Because of the foster system the way it is, and because christains like you don't adopt or foster care. The single parent that purposefully raises a child alone with love care and purpose is not part of the numbers you select. The two parents of same sex children are not part of those numbers and you are selecting numbers that relate to your topic but do not have anything to do with your topic. So you are sooo wrong.

you go on about anal sex being bad, but you can't say anything about lesbian sex being unhealty, unless of course you have never had any oral sex at all in your life I do believe you have never given it though!


And the continued debate that you try and use of behavior being protected by the law. You yourself are protected by YOUR behavior by the law. You are allowed your bigoted religious freedom. Because Religion is a behavior, its a choice, an act, your rituals, are protected. Those are all behaviors, your opinion is protected. And the fact that you can act on it.

All things you are trying to make sure that same sex couples can not get.

Please believe what you will, and please act on it. AS long as you dont physically harm anyone. Which is your right by law.

The thing is, is that you do harm people, you harm people by trying to force your behavior onto them. That is against the law. That is colonization at its best, and at its least its a hate crime.

mom said...

saying that the divorce rates, and single parent issues in the world is the same as same sex parenting is absurd, its like saying oranges and apples are fruit so they are the same?

The divorce issues lay heavily in the christain world. If anything they lead the pack.

Abandonment, neglect, abuse, social outcasting, social networking and oportunities not given to minorities, are the reasons we have so many "single" parented children in the prison system.

If a group and or family of any kind, shape or form, that is loving, non abusive, and opportunity giving, given the chance to parent will produce a fine citizen for our nation.

I agree with Elaine on idea that the fight your group has about religious freedom and laws that protect them are the same facts that can be used for the argument that Gay people can't have those laws protecting them because they are looking for protection on their "behavior". Religion is a behavior. Its a choice, and an opinion. It is not fact, it is not race or a biological make up of who you are. you have laws to protect your behavior its now time to go and live your behavior and stop forcing your religious ways on the courts.

bob said...

The thing we need to stop period is the religious extremists pushing their colonizing conforming agenda out of capital hill. Its a scary day when any law is based religion. Moderate Republicans have some logical ideas to bring to the table, but they are currently being drowned out by the Limbaughs and the neo-con hate monger crazies like Bachmann, and the likes of people at the MFC.

Do as the amish do, form your own land and laws if you need to, stop trying to form others to your liking.

bob said...

I like how Elaine answered all of Tom Prichards questions to the people that approached him, and he never responded. Although Chuck who loves to be as brass as he can always does...

I also love how chuck never answers the questions to his never ending line to why he is against Gay Marriage, its cause he is against gay sex because its unhealthy. He loves to say things that will try and envoke people to be grossed out like anal sex and rimming, but when confronted with the questions on Lesbian sex and safty he has nothing to say.

I think Chuck needs to see a shrink on his obsession on anal sex. and the idea that all men who have sex with other men are doing a million and three men, all unprotected and in the back of bathrooms. Perhaps thats how the extreme right religious gay men role Chuck as we have seen right here in our own airport, but guess what? Its not the scene of 90% of gay men. And guess what? It is the same with straight people, 10% of straight people are doing unsafe, sexual things in unsafe places, and guess what again Chuck? that number is huge! much larger than the gay male sex group.

So Chuck, go save a christain today from themselves, and leave the gay population to living nice monogomous, safe sexually, purposefulling parenting well adjusted families alone.

lary said...

""I frankly enjoy interactions of people I disagree with when they seek to engage in a rational discussion of the issue. The more this can occur the better for all concerned""

How much interaction have you seeked out on your own? Have you attended a pride festival? have you sat in on a pflag meeting? Do you yourself have friends that are different than you are? think differently live differently?

Have you even thought of perhaps going to see one of the Tony Kushner plays or talks being led at the guthrie?

Have you ever heard testiments of Teens that have been unequally treated because they are gay?

Have you ever thought that just perhaps you are Wrong at all? That perhaps you can lead your life in the way you have made the conscience choice to do so, and keep the practices and behaviors that are fundementally protected by the law, and let others get that exact right for themselves?

For when you keep the fundamental right for all people to be treated equal, you yourself are committing the biggest sin.

lary said...

""All one has to do is visit the state prison to find that 85% of the prisoners didn't have a father in their lives suggests other wise""

95% of all those families are from straight christain families.

It sounds like being athestist and gay would provide for better life!

Please pick real that actually correlate and show the picture of what you mean. This is ridiculous and can be shut down in two seconds by anyone that can add 2 plus 2